Travel: How Destinations & Brands Work with Influencers - the Good, the Bad & the Ugly

[: 00:00:00

[00:00:16] Nasreen: Hi and welcome to another episode of Time to Talk Travel. We are here today with a topic that we get asked about a lot. Working in the travel industry and travel writing and conferences and brand partnerships and all of us having been on the project management end of helping a client get influencers, there is an aura of mystery and glamor around, free trips, free product, PR, things like that.

There's a lot that goes into working with brands and different companies. We thought we'd break down a little bit of it, tell some stories, maybe not shame anyone, but talk through a couple of frustrations that exist out there when people partner with influencers.

It's happening more and more. You're seeing it all over Tik TOK now where regular folks are getting reached out to and being asked to do things. And I know that rates and what's expected are always fun little side quests . So I don't know how we want to jump into this

[: 00:01:21

[00:01:22] Nasreen: History lesson first. Yes. Okay. Back in the early days of OG mom bloggers, brands were like, Oh, these ladies can reach people that we can't reach very easily. Let's give them a free car seat or free whatever, and then tell them to do 18 pieces of content for it. No, I'm kidding.

That's really not a joke. Sometimes it happens. It was a lot of trading products for something else. And then people started saying, Hey, wait, I'm creating stuff that you're then monetizing. How does that work? It went into how much do you get paid for that? Then became the whole. Why do they get paid this much and I get paid this much?

Or why are you taking it for free? You're bringing, you're making it so no one else is actually getting money and a lot of drama behind the scenes and now we're up to today where , what do you do? Do you do stuff for free? Do you not do it for free? What constitutes a good working relationship?

[: 00:02:16

The space was pretty new and the expectations were completely unclear. I honestly don't know that the brand made their money back on that event because they gave away so much. We started being showered with very expensive products and very unclear expectations, whereas then somebody would send you a diaper cake and expect you to do 37 posts about diapers. They'd be like, why didn't I see it on your Facebook? Why didn't you post on Twitter? The expectations of what there was were not commensurate. This product is worth X amount and this is the work we expect from you since we're giving you this product.

I think it's gotten better, but I don't think it totally has gotten better. There's still a lot of that just randomly giving expensive things to people and having unclear expectations. In my experience I had a very expensive stroller brand give me a stroller and I wrote about it extensively on my blog.

And then I went to the ABC kids show the next season and I picked up their brochure and they had lifted the full copy of what I wrote about the stroller and turned it into their brochure. I'd worked as a copywriter for many, many years, so I know how to write copy and I know what copywriters are paid. And I was like, wow, I was so excited about getting this $800 stroller for free. However, had I been the copywriter working on their brochure, I probably would have made more money. So it was not for free. I think we've all had those experiences where our photos and our copy have been lifted and people are walking around like, Oh my God, I can't believe you got that for free.

And we're like, but did I? Was it really free? It doesn't feel like it was free.

[: 00:04:43

[00:04:45] Ciaran: It was not. It was BEEP. Bugaboo. BLEEP

[: 00:04:48

I remember helping a gal who had been on Shark Tank and had a massive Following on how to grow, how to get a business to Shark Tank and how to grow your company and helped her get a stroller from Britax when I was in the baby space. But you know, that's the beauty of it.

I think the brands who do their research before giving you the product. Remember , in the good old days, you didn't know when you opened your front door, what boxes were there and where they came from. Like they were just randomly sent to your house and you're like, what am

I supposed to

[: 00:05:32

[00:05:40] Nasreen: What was the one that gave you assignments on what you were an expert on on Twitter? It was a website and they used to send you random stuff.

[: 00:05:48

[00:05:49] Nasreen: Klout. It was Klout.

[: 00:05:50

[00:05:52] Nasreen: Because I randomly opened my door one day and this is maybe one of the weirder ones I got. It was a box from Ricola, Ricola.

Okay. Okay. And. I opened it and it sang, Reee gola! And it was filled with all the drops or whatever. My kids thought it was the most hilarious thing in the world. I didn't

[: 00:06:12

when it was a surprise and delight, right? We opened those things And we were like, Oh wow, what is this? We didn't know. A lot of it was unsolicited at the time. There was no list. There were no rules. By the time clout came around, God, I think that was like 10, 15 years into. You know, like

s now, I just looked it up in: 2023

Influencer marketing is valued at $21.1 billion and we were at conferences fighting with major brands, major car companies, major retailers for a hundred bucks a post.

Thank you. All creators, you can thank us for fighting your fight and getting you paid because those are the conversations that we had. We were the ones who went in and did it all. I saw a TikTok yesterday about this influencer who was sent a package. And the video that they did was because they were offended by being sent something that wasn't to their liking. To the point where the brand actually had to make a video to say, Here, on a green screen, here are, The emails that your team, God, imagine if you had a team, I didn't have a team.

I had four kids and me. Here's all the emails that went back and forth with your team who sent us your address to send you this. We agree if it was not for you, please pass it along to someone else. We'd prefer you didn't throw it out, but if you want, that's your choice.

We gave it to you. That's kind of the sad part is the level of entitlement at this level. Yes. Okay. Maybe we made it look too easy back in the day. But you know, we've built relationships. We went to these conferences. There's a reason why we know Kate at Britax and we all know them.

I was in Canada. I wasn't even in the same country as you guys doing all this stuff. And it's literally my 20 year anniversary coming up. I started a website when you couldn't just go to Wix. WordPress was around, but it was certainly not even as easy as it is now. And, you know, you look at how easy it is to do, and yet they're complacent in how we got to be there. Do you know what I mean?

[: 00:08:26

[00:08:26] Nasreen: Yeah, the challenge also was, and I always talk about, there were so many rules of disclosure. And disclosure. Oh my goodness. The number of times I have posted on LinkedIn about disclosure because we're starting to see corporate influencers and they're posting all over LinkedIn about things and not disclosing that they are in a relationship with them.

And disclosure was such, and it might be the time that I got into everything really big.

[: 00:08:54

we've been in it so long that there was like, there were no rules.

[: 00:08:59

[00:09:01] Desiree: or 2013. Okay.

[: 00:09:04

And it got really in the weeds because of a couple reasons, right?

First of all, people are like, Oh, you know, they're not disclosing. They're not disclosing. They're not disclosing. They're not disclosing properly, saying partner isn't clear. Saying this isn't clear. Then it was policing people's posts and talking about people who weren't doing it right.

But also there's this whole fruit of the poisoned tree approach . Because if I went to Disney on a trip that was partially free, then every single time I write about an experience, is that now fruit of the poisoned sponsored tree? Because I also went to Disney a bunch of other times. If I talk for years later about something that I got for free from a brand, but have recommended it to friends who have bought from them -like Britax.

Great example, right? Okay. I got a couple of things for free from them through different car and travel websites, through you. I got a car seat.

My sister bought the same car seat and I went in on one for a baby shower because I loved ours so much.

Now every time I talk about that car seat, is it still one I got for free?

I purchased one now. And that was where it got so hairy and it's getting hairy again as people get into it because I see these influencers, even ones I love on TikTok and they're like, Oh, this was in a PR box. People don’t know what that means!

[: 00:10:40

If this brand is giving me this product what am I giving them? Every time I got something from somebody, if I was going to write about it, I really did think about, am I providing value? Is it worth it for them to give me their products? And I was in the space as well because I was manufacturing children's clothes. I was going to celebrity events. Before mom blogging, you would give your stuff to celebrities. You would go to these gifting suites and you would just fling products at them. That was kind of a known thing. They were the influencers. Angelina Jolie's kids wore my clothes and it was in People magazine and that made my brand.

So I knew the value of influencer marketing. And I saw all of these bloggers popping up with huge audiences. I was one of the first advocates for influencer marketing because I saw the reach that these people had.

[: 00:11:59

Then when you put us all together, we started to put those ideas together for the brands. Do you remember that one gifting suite that Audrey and Vera did?

[: 00:12:23

[00:12:26] Maureen: That was one of the best ones. And it wasn't a brand that put it together. Audrey and Vera put it together and pulled in some amazing brands and amazing influencers, mom bloggers at the time. That set the stage for a lot of it. But you're right. We impeded on the celebrity PR budgets at that point. And that's when they started to then bring those together. I mean, how many celebrity luncheons and cocktail parties did we all go to? Get our picture taken with Jessica Alba or whoever was the person of the day.

[: 00:12:58

Because you see like a big joke on Twitter about how he followed every mom influencer out there.

So hi Ty Diggs.

[: 00:13:08

I wasn't going to sell myself out. I do remember even a year ago. I had a friend who had gone on trips forever. She morphed from writing for a magazine to just putting it out on social media. She had never once put sponsored on a post or anything. And I sent her a DM and just saidare you paying for these trips or are they hosting you?

Because the FTC has laws about this And she had no idea. In all of her years, I mean, she's a professional writer. And she swore to me up and down. I really had no idea. I mean they weren't gonna come to police the tiny mom blogger but it definitely it caused quite the riff between us because people were like, hey You have to say that was a paid trip, or you have to say they hosted you for free.

You have to, because it's important. For me, I saw it as, my readers trust me. They save up five to ten grand for a trip.

They want to know I'm being honest about this was a really great place. Not, well, they were really good to me. That was the other thing some of the brands got really smart about when they would host us. Typically for the listener, a press trip, a fam trip, they'd invite us down.

We stayed at a particular hotel, but then we'd also end up at three to five restaurants in a day. We would do three excursions in a day. We were running from seven in the morning until 11 at night, just go, go, go, go, go, because they wanted us to write about all the things while we were there.

They were maximizing our time. It was exhausting. But. It was part of the game and what you did, but you were making these connections that you then could do more with. A smart person would go on these trips, make the connection. I would always kind of smile because I would watch some of the bloggers.

They'd have four to eight of us on each trip. And I would watch some of the bloggers buddy up and just talk to each other the whole time. Dude, I was sitting right next to my PR contact. Every single trip I was becoming besties with the media person because that is the person that you're going to get the paid partnerships with later or the future trips with.

I made sure after each trip, I emailed them and said, These are links to everything I did for coverage. And I always did a little more because I wanted to stand out. I wanted to be the person who built that relationship and built future business. We have friends who are really good at this.

Naz was the master at Excel sheets of here's all the reach. I didn't always do that. I'd screenshot, here's what you got, you know, but.

[: 00:16:07

And so that is who your contact is.

And that adds a layer of fun into the whole sponsorship because as people started realizing the FTC rules and things needed to be disclosed, different social platforms started to add disclosure tools and tags. Instagram, you're tagging it as sponsored. Facebook, you're tagging it as sponsored. But like many things, the technology outpaced

what was actually happening and what was able to be done

because you've got multiple layers and different teams.

If you've got a contract with brand A and brand A wants you to post three sponsored Facebook posts and you're tagging them through the brand A tool on Facebook, they have to approve that you've tagged them for a sponsored post.

And if they don't, if it's the PR company you're working with and their social division is somewhere else and they don't approve that, you either have to post without it or not deliver what you promised. And that was when people started to really lean into the business end of these contracts. I mean, I was writing into contracts.

If your team does not pre clear our social handle over here, we cannot deliver these posts and will not be held responsible. Because you could essentially be held responsible for getting caught in this weird blacklist of social media crap.

But the whole PR thing also you were saying, Ciaran, about why would they want to give you this and where does this go?

What does it get for them? Brands that understood how to speak to influencers and how to work together,

they're always doing it for a reason and if they tell you the reason is only numbers, that's not good enough.

Nobody is only doing it for the numbers and if they are, it's for the wrong reasons.

[: 00:18:27

numbers. They always have, and I think they always will. And I mean, this is where my area of expertise came in. You and I met because of my company Hashtracking. And for many years, I was tracking hashtags on both Twitter and Instagram. Thousands of brands, frankly, were using it to track these influencer marketing programs.

And I kind of became like this person that people were afraid of in the blogging community. Nobody really crossed me. I was like the gynecologist, you know, I knew all their dirty secrets. I could tell you exactly who was buying traffic, who was selling traffic, faking traffic. All of that was really, really obvious to me. And I can't tell you how many of the brands just did not give a crap. They were fine with that. When it comes down to it, a lot of people running the campaigns then, and probably now, are reporting to somebody who just wants to see big numbers. If the blogger beneath them that they've partnered with is giving them big numbers on a report, and this was something that you mentioned that you did, and Des, you mentioned too, post campaign, Putting together your own report, here's what I did.

Here's what all the views were. Here's what some of the sales were that anecdotal that I know about all that is so helpful. But the person who's running the campaign is showing this report like, Oh, look, we got a million views on the product, but at the end of the day, it really becomes clear that some of these huge name influencers who are demanding, I posted a picture of a t shirt.

I'm not doing it for less than 5, 000. When you actually dig into the ROI, they sold three t-shirts.

It's not the right audience. It's not so great for exposure and brand name recognition. But if your goal is to sell t shirts, that's not necessarily good.

[: 00:20:16

And also versus marketing, these are all different objectives that you may be being approached to participate in, then you've got storytelling versus. If they want you to say these very specific things or include these points. That's an advertorial. You're giving me the information that you want me to pass on, your key messages that you are saying, this must be in this post. That's not creative content. That is an advertorial. Then you've got traditional media versus influencer marketing. And that's where the numbers come in and that they are used to seeing big numbers from traditional media. If you're doing a media buy, you need those numbers to push your ROI.

It's not a clear path because you could have somebody who's doing a PR budget And looking for a media buy result

[: 00:21:30

[00:21:34] Maureen: It was up to you as the influencer and still is to clarify. When I do a TV segment or radio or whatever I'm doing, I say I am going to put this in my words. You can give me all the scripts you like, but I will never agree to read it because that's not my brand.

That's not authentic and that's not how I've been successful for 20 years. If you want to have somebody read your stuff go hire an actress, because that is an advertorial. You're paying Somebody to say exactly what you want. If you want me to create content for you that you can then use and put your own captions with, or your own that you want.

There's lots of different ways to work with brands, but as the creator you need to understand what your brand is and how you're going to work with those different departments. PR has a lot less money than a media buying agency, way less.

But they're looking for storytelling. They're looking for the creative side.

Media buys are looking for reach. And so that's the part that we all understand, but I don't know how many creators now look at it that way. Because it's their audience that you're getting, you're paying access to, right?

[: 00:22:48

[00:23:00] Maureen: A whole lot of trial and error.

[: 00:23:01

We've all run programs. I think probably more successful programs than most because of our experiences, both on the brand side and on the influencer side. Setting clear expectations is key. Letting people know, here's what you're getting. Here's what we're expecting. I think the days of influencers throwing tantrums and making huge demands are not quite over, but are limited as brands get more savvy and realize the difference in what part of their budget should be going towards influencers.

[: 00:23:39

Someone has to take a picture of them holding the camera, getting their Beautiful shots, and then beautiful shots using the camera. This particular person, man, they took the money. They did one campaign. And then in the very next Instagram post, they were holding another brand's camera. And that camera company I mean, they were angry.

[: 00:24:25

[00:24:33] Desiree: Well, they did have it, but yeah.

[: 00:24:35

[00:24:38] Nasreen: The contracts are so important and I think a lot of people don't necessarily read them carefully . I was up for a PR trip not long ago, a press trip. It mentioned a blackout period of time that we were supposed to be basically unplugged and we all know how much I love being unplugged, right?

I know that that episode was not my favorite, but you can't do anything because they want you to be on the trip. And I'm sitting there going, that's losing money. If you're going after people who make their living this way, and you're telling me I can't post for seven days while I'm on the trip, that's going to cost a lot of money.

And then what are we talking about? I can't program anything. I can't have anything going up? What about stuff for my business side of things and not necessarily even just promoting someone else? And so all of those ins and outs and contracts you've got to be so careful about that and take it seriously. Because if you lose revenue. But I want to jump back really quickly to just the PR and the storytelling tying back into what Ciaran was saying earlier with The whole what's in it for them?

What's their ROI? What's their aim and with the campaigns at least and mostly the storytelling type content driven ones. When I was managing or participating in one, one of the biggest questions is , what are they trying to achieve? What are they reporting on? Because a lot of times, while the numbers are important, they may be looking to reach a very specific segment and they're hoping that you can help reach that.

Or they're trying to bring more awareness to specific features that the item has, or that it's now coming out here, there, or wherever else. People think only of this when they think of this item, but they're trying to expand what people think of. And so when you're understanding exactly what they're going to be reporting back on in addition to numbers, it helps you to deliver better and convert better and also, to report back to them what they need to report on to the next people.

And that's how a lot of people kind of keep getting picked by brands over and over again, because when you're looking at what their end outcome is, and in the corporate world, this is what we're always doing is, why is someone coming on as a guest for a podcast here? Why are they reaching out to be speaking here?

What are they trying to accomplish? And if you can accomplish that with them, you're going to get more work. There's something in addition to numbers for everything.

[: 00:26:58

[00:27:04] Nasreen: Exactly.

[: 00:27:05

And she already knows what I need her to do so that I look like a rockstar.

[: 00:27:18

[00:27:25] Maureen: They may have that list, but it's a personal thing. They're the one who has to go into the meeting and present this, and when you word it that way, it makes them think, Oh, okay. Yeah. Could you send me a report? It might not be on the official list, but it's going to help them do their job better, which makes whatever you did look better to whoever approves the budget for the next one.

And that's the thing I would always say you know what, I really like to develop partnerships with brands. I'd like you to think of me on a regular basis. I'd like us to sign up for four campaigns a year. I don't want to work with your competitor. I want to work with you on a regular basis.

I truly enjoy your product or your service or your place. I still work with Visit Orlando and Amy, because we've been friends for years and she knows when I need something for TV and I know when she needs something and anytime I can help her, you can help me. This is a decade now. Those are the relationships. And those people move on. They go to different companies, they go to different agencies. But there's a reason why some people are successful and why some people come and go, because if you're only out for yourself, you will go. You will not be in a lovely podcast 15 years later with people that you like.

If I had that reputation, I don't think Des would have called me back.

[: 00:28:45

I don't need 10 different campaigns. I need one brand that wants to work with me four times, I mean, I can get more out of that then.

[: 00:29:01

Share content, like people's content. You know, that's the way that people go, Oh, that's, you know, with Des's book. We all jumped in to help. I'm still working on the backside on your book club thing. I haven't even taken it out of the package yet.

Cause I want to make good content for you. And there is something to longevity. There's launch and longevity, right? So you're going to need another hit. I got it right here. I'm not even lying. See, it really is it. I didn't just pick up a random Amazon package,

but those are the little things, right? Those are the things that we remember of people helping and it works the same on the corporate side. Everybody's got a job.

[: 00:29:57

[00:30:09] Nasreen: Yep. Maria, Leanne, I saw them all.

[: 00:30:12

They don't need to make a million dollars on every post, but they're supposed to go to the location, experience the location, and bring a new location to their audience. And maybe, they're going to use four of the pictures that they took. They're going to meet the posting guidelines. But maybe they have a dozen other photos that they're willing to share either for a small amount of money or, just as part of their contract to give to the destination as owned media. Owned media is something that they can use in their brochure contractually. There's many places that I went to that hadn't been in my contract. Knew I was going on a vacation of a lifetime. Sure, you can have some of my pictures of the sunset. I'm flattered that you want to use my photography. My ego is not so huge that I'm going to demand $5,000 a shot because there's plenty of stock photography out there. But my shot is storytelling and authentic. Micro influencers I think are more willing to work that way and are more valuable to brands in many ways when it comes to ROI. Newer bloggers and influencers can slip in and build a relationship and show somebody, yes, I'm working with you.

I want you to be successful. I want to be invited back. It's not giving it away. That's what the one and done influencers would sort of have you.

[: 00:31:47

And so I know everybody is going to have a couple ideas on this. I've got my top three that I run through with people. The first one is. Usage agreements and contracts. You can't be upset with what someone did or didn't do if you don't lay out what they are supposed to do or not do. It should not just be a boilerplate ridiculous we own everything. Give us everything. Do 80 billion things. It needs to be customized to the campaign or influencer.

Number two, the whole idea of where the item will live. There is a difference in price for a lot of folks between writing an article that then goes and lives on your site. You guys are going to update for a long time and maybe do other things with that they're not 100 percent sure on, especially if it's a really personal ask , like make a video of your family and a destination. It's going on our site. We do whatever we want with it. That's going to cost more than having them hosted and having them put something on their site where they're going to get revenue out of it from visitors.

And they're going to know that a relationship of linking back and forth exists. And people don't necessarily understand the cost difference between that.

The third one is, So tell me what you're going to do for us. What is your idea?

Ideas are currency in the influencer and creator world. If someone tells you, they can't share that with you, but they can share how they work with other brands.

That's good. That means they know what they're doing because

part of your initial research is looking to people who tell stories in a way that you and your brand like.

Then you can ask them things like. Hey, this is our idea for a campaign. We're looking for a story in an accompanying video.

I know that you're not going to give me a list of what you're going to do for us, but can you show me how you worked through a similar contract with another brand and what the outcome was?

Point me towards relevant pieces of content that you've created because you can see just as much from that.

But no one wants to tell a brand what they're doing and then see their idea used. without them being involved.

[: 00:34:16

was trying to do a million influencer campaigns for huge, huge brands, we would want to find an artist in LA who had connections for pride and all these very specific criteria. if I can't find that on your bio or your website, I'm not going to take too long to find it. I'm moving on. and if you don't give me anything to take into my team to sell You don't need to give me the exact ideas. You're going to have to help me paint a picture of why we should work with you.

One If you don't do it somebody else will, and they'll get the job.

[: 00:35:07

[00:35:13] Maureen: Oh, most things that brands do are wrong, but I mean, brands that think that they're buying media when I guess they're buying PR now. Is. Even in traditional media now. So they've learned a lot. It,

is way different even than five, 10 years ago.

COVID reset a lot, in our world, because there's a very different sort of content creator now than there was before. People spent a lot of time in their house doing nothing. Watching a lot of things that they normally wouldn't have had the time or attention span to. It was habit changing in that way. not only are there more creators, there's different kinds of content and different platforms to watch it on. So from the brand side, the biggest one is where's your audience. Just because everybody else is on TikTok, if

your audience is 45 plus it's not your platform. figure out Facebook.

Figure out traditional media. They still have the TV on. Just because it's trendy doesn't mean it necessarily is a fit for your audience. On the same token, if you've got a brand new video game targeted at 12 year olds, no. Don't spend a penny on Facebook. They don't even know where it is unless, you know, they're going to see what their grandma said about what their mom posted.

And that's like twice a year. Knowing where your audience is and who you're trying to reach and what you really want. That's from the brand side. And as the creator or influencer, know if You are the right person, if you're not the right person, then don't take the job either.

So many times I've had to have that conversation. I will offer to come in, I've gone in for a half a day and gone through with a brand and said, let's talk about your audience and then let's see what you're doing. Do a full audit of what they're doing on different platforms and be like, you know what?

Don't even worry about Snapchat. That is four levels from now, right? That's not your bag. I think if you know what you are doing and put it out there very clearly, the more you will be approached to do things. And I don't just sit there and wait to be approached. Go sell yourself. If there's a certain destination that you'd love to do a story on or have a creative idea for.

Sometimes you do have to put the idea out there and say, Hey, this is what I can bring to the table and take the risk. If you're confident that you're the one who's going to be able to do the best job of it and it fits with what their objectives are , more often than not, it'll work.

[: 00:37:35

I've given away a lot of ideas, which is something that you were saying you shouldn't do. I agree but if you're just starting out. you have to give a little bit of your ideas away and you have to take your hits if somebody steals your idea.

Obviously, they weren't the company you wanted to work with anyway, because they're a company that steals ideas. Eventually, those people know and other people will know and if you're a person who has good ideas, you're going to have another great idea.

[: 00:38:16

Obviously that's a unique idea to bring to the table for the city of Houston, where we're always at and people come in there for medical reasons. Could they go find someone else to do that? Sure. But they didn't approach me and say, Hey, tell me what you can write about Houston. And I think for me, it's what the brand is asking for upfront when they're going out and looking for people, cold.

[: 00:38:55

[00:39:11] Maureen: That's a great opening though, for that person to say, Hey, let me help you with this a little bit here.

[: 00:39:15

No No, no, if you're worried about spam put the in an at with around parentheses instead of an at so they don't copy. She would say, you don't know how many times I just gave up on a person. They could have been one of those coveted Disney ambassadors. She's, I can't find your email after 15 minutes. I'm done. I'm out. That's just how it is.

super was the director of influencer marketing for Mosaic, which was North America wide, we were pumping out 50 influencer programs. I had a team in Connecticut, Chicago and Toronto trying to find influencers to propose we're talking hundreds a week. We don't have time. If we can't contact you, onto the next. That's what I'm saying. Put where you live, it's the basics. I'm not going to go through. You'd be surprised how many sites I have no idea where this person is. They have great content.

[: 00:40:28

Thank you for joining us. We actually really loved talking about this and have a lot to say on it. It's the intersection of why we travel because we love it, but also because we want to share it with you and create things for everybody else to look at and be inspired by.

Until next time,

[: 00:40:55

[00:40:56] Narrator: This has been another episode of Time to Talk Travel, brought to you by HashtagTravels. com. You can keep in touch with us between episodes by checking out our site, joining our newsletter, or connecting with us on social. We've always got the information you need in our episode notes. Until next time, happy travels, and thanks for being a part of our trip.